The Battle at Dawn: The first battle between the United States and Japan December 7-10, 1941 (2024)

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  • Thread startergalveston bay
  • Start dateDec 6, 2016
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    alternate midway islandpacific warpearl harbor
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Battle of Kure Atoll Part 4 Commence FIring!Battle of Kure Atoll Part 4 The Empire Strikes Back and finaleThe Battle of Midway: Plans and Approach December 10 1941Battle of Midway: Slaughter and Sacrifice at DawnBattle of Midway: Scratch One Flattop!Battle of Midway: Hammer Blows and FinaleEpilogueauthors note

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  • Jan 15, 2017
  • #961

zert

Driftless said:

As I'm thinking more on it, your point about losses the flight leaders and squadron commanders has merit, particularly among the torpedo and dive bomber groups for the Americans. They took some real hard losses there.

The US will recover, and there are still experienced torpedo and dive bomber leaders out there to step in. It is the transition that may cost the US in the beginning until these new pilots get experience and combat exposure.

  • Jan 15, 2017
  • 4
  • #962

Shadow Master

Banned

galveston bay wrote:
"An Honorable Fight: The American defense of the Philippines"

I would just be happy with a single change, let the FEAF launch their airstrike, so no DM saying the philippines isn't at war with Japan nonsense. That one change alone could have completely changed to course of the campaign IMHO. It may not mean that the islands can hold out, but it does throw a huge monkey wrench into the careful timetable of the Japanese Empire, with their aircraft grounded by heavy fog, and then the FEAF bombers arrive just as it clears up!

  • Jan 16, 2017
  • #963

Thomas27

Banned

I think that galveston bay will in fact cover the whole pacific war until the famous invasion of Japan mainland ^^

  • Jan 16, 2017
  • #964

Just caught up with this TL. While not being myself a expert on naval warfare (far, very far from it TBH), I'm enjoying it a lot. Well done!
I'm also quite amused to see the hate around Mac Arthur in this forum. Sure he made mistakes and I've heard that he wanted to nuke china during the Korean War (not the sanest or smartest move, I agree) but Patton wasn't a perfect angel either. Maybe because I'm not american, dunno.

  • Jan 16, 2017
  • 8
  • #965

steamboy

I think the big difference between the two (Patton and Doug) was that Patton could back up his claims and his bravado and sheer arrogance with actual ability. Doug in WW2 did a full Trump and convinced everyone else of his greatness and how it was everyone elses fault and not his that he got kicked out of the Phillipines. He made himself appear to be the best thing since sliced bread. When the truth really was quite quite different. Patton had an ego that he could back up with results. Mac believed his own hype.

Also if you put the two in the same room I think there would have been some kind of divide by zero event or some ego black hole formed from the weight of their self belief The Battle at Dawn: The first battle between the United States and Japan December 7-10, 1941 (3)

  • Jan 16, 2017
  • 4
  • #966

merlin

It's not small butterfly wings we have now a flapping, but huge condor like wings! As what's interesting now is the consequences of the reduction of the Japanese Naval Carrier capability.
Questions: do Guam and Wake still fall? Interesting to see what plans GP has for the Philippines - will it still fall, and if so what will be the extra cost for Japan?
The Japanese raid in the Bay of Bengal & Ceylon, I don't see as happening - Japan just won't have the capacity to go swanning off.
Will Japan, still be able to secure Rabaul - or could it become an Allied base.
With no Midway return match likely, Coral Sea - the Invasion of Port Moresby may get more support - especially if the is going to be an Invasion of Darwin!!

  • Jan 16, 2017
  • 1
  • #967

Logan2879

steamboy said:

I think the big difference between the two (Patton and Doug) was that Patton could back up his claims and his bravado and sheer arrogance with actual ability. Doug in WW2 did a full Trump and convinced everyone else of his greatness and how it was everyone elses fault and not his that he got kicked out of the Phillipines. He made himself appear to be the best thing since sliced bread. When the truth really was quite quite different. Patton had an ego that he could back up with results. Mac believed his own hype.

Also if you put the two in the same room I think there would have been some kind of divide by zero event or some ego black hole formed from the weight of their self belief The Battle at Dawn: The first battle between the United States and Japan December 7-10, 1941 (5)

Thank you Steamboy took the words out of my mouth... The Battle at Dawn: The first battle between the United States and Japan December 7-10, 1941 (6)

  • Jan 16, 2017
  • 1
  • #968

Zheng He

Thomas27 said:

I think that galveston bay will in fact cover the whole pacific war until the famous invasion of Japan mainland ^^

Or up until the Japanese invade Baja. Sorry, couldn't resist given the other thread we currently have going on.

  • Jan 16, 2017
  • 2
  • #969

galveston bay

Zheng He said:

Or up until the Japanese invade Baja. Sorry, couldn't resist given the other thread we currently have going on.

yikes!... I saw that one too

as for Patton, I think he reached the highest level he was competent in (commander of a field army) and he always had strict oversight. Macarthur was a theater commander and the distant oversight on him, when it was loose, led to him making terrible errors. When it was stricter, he did better.

  • Jan 16, 2017
  • 9
  • #970

Zheng He

Two areas where DM does deserve credit for doing an overall excellent job - as superintendent of West Point he dragged a stodgy institution kicking and screaming into the 20th Century against a great deal of resistance and he did quite well as the defacto Emperor of Japan post war.

  • Jan 16, 2017
  • #971

Lost Freeway

Banned

Zheng He said:

Or up until the Japanese invade Baja. Sorry, couldn't resist given the other thread we currently have going on.

Which one?

  • Jan 16, 2017
  • 1
  • #972

Ryan

Donor

Lost Freeway said:


https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/what-if-japan-invaded-mexico-in-june-of-1942.407595/

  • Jan 16, 2017
  • 2
  • #973

vl100butch

Will there be a Doolittle raid in this TL? Seems to me that the torpedoing of Saratoga is butterflied away and by early 1942, Brown has 4 carriers available with the addition of Hornet. What if the raid was doubled in size and came from two different directions...how far off their rockers would the Japanese go?

  • Jan 16, 2017
  • #974

Logan2879

Ryan said:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/what-if-japan-invaded-mexico-in-june-of-1942.407595/

No, leave this one out... Don't see this in this timeline... The Battle at Dawn: The first battle between the United States and Japan December 7-10, 1941 (8)

  • Jan 16, 2017
  • 3
  • #975

Sir Chaos

Banned

vl100butch said:

Will there be a Doolittle raid in this TL? Seems to me that the torpedoing of Saratoga is butterflied away and by early 1942, Brown has 4 carriers available with the addition of Hornet. What if the raid was doubled in size and came from two different directions...how far off their rockers would the Japanese go?

Given how much damage the IJN has taken right at the start of the war, the whole "the Japanese are running wild in the Pacific and nothing can stop them" mood that contributed to such a wild idea as the Doolittle Raid being tried isn´t there ITTL.

  • Jan 16, 2017
  • 2
  • #976

NHBL

There's no need for the major risk of the Doolittle Raid. It was intended to boost moralle at home afer a smashing defeat; this time, it's a rough fight, but not a crushing, one sided defeat.

  • Jan 16, 2017
  • 2
  • #977

galveston bay

Zheng He said:

Two areas where DM does deserve credit for doing an overall excellent job - as superintendent of West Point he dragged a stodgy institution kicking and screaming into the 20th Century against a great deal of resistance and he did quite well as the defacto Emperor of Japan post war.

he did make an excellent Emperor, General Marshall even said "he didn't have a staff, he had a court."

  • Jan 16, 2017
  • 1
  • #978

GTStinger

zert said:

Things may change ITTL if Halsey were to die or be crippled from his injuries. Would Brown remain as Commander of the Carriers/Pacific fleet or are there other admirals with more seniority?

Brown got pulled back to a desk job for health reasons in early 1942. If the same thing occurs in ITTL and Halsey is out of the picture, I have a nagging feeling Noyes gets fleet command.
Fitch is a possibility though, but I could see him kept in Hawaii to oversee rebuilding air wings and facilities for Midway and the carrier fleet.

  • Jan 16, 2017
  • #979

vl100butch

what about Spruance?

  • Jan 16, 2017
  • 5
  • #980

galveston bay

GTStinger said:

Brown got pulled back to a desk job for health reasons in early 1942. If the same thing occurs in ITTL and Halsey is out of the picture, I have a nagging feeling Noyes gets fleet command.
Fitch is a possibility though, but I could see him kept in Hawaii to oversee rebuilding air wings and facilities for Midway and the carrier fleet.

Brown is a going home at some point due to health. Nimitz will certainly get CINCPAC for the same reasons he did historically. Spruance will keep his task force but Towers is a possibility for another one built around the Saratoga and Hornet. Fletcher and Newton will stay in surface forces (due to their success in battle). Fitch or Towers will get important positions.

There are vacancies as follows:
CINCPAC (Richardson) Brown in acting command
Commander Battle Force (Pye)
Aircraft Battle Force (Halsey)
Bat Div 1 (Kidd)(although 2 of that div are total losses and the Nevada is out of action for some time so that entire BatDiv will have to be reconstituted)
Commander Scouting Force (Brown, who moved up and will move out eventually)
also lost w Richardson, Pye, Halsey and Kidd were their Chiefs of Staff

this has a handy list of who held what job as of October 1941 which I used for this TL
http://www.fleetorganization.com/1941intro.html

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Battle of Kure Atoll Part 4 Commence FIring!Battle of Kure Atoll Part 4 The Empire Strikes Back and finaleThe Battle of Midway: Plans and Approach December 10 1941Battle of Midway: Slaughter and Sacrifice at DawnBattle of Midway: Scratch One Flattop!Battle of Midway: Hammer Blows and FinaleEpilogueauthors note

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